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Paul Vunak “State of the Union” Interview
(November 3, 2001)
UncleVoo,
Welcome to what Paul calls his “State of
the Union” interview…
PFS: Some have said that this interview is long overdue. Many of us are
wondering why we haven’t seen you on the forums very much.
To be perfectly honest with you, I just don’t have time!
PFS: Paul, please
tell us your opinion on the title of this interview – what is the “state of
the union” as far as martial arts right now?
Well, I’ll put it to you like this…twenty years ago, there were but a few
JKD people – let’s say one or two percent – who were competing for 98
percent of the pie. Now there are gobs of JKD people – the 98 percent,
competing for just two percent of the pie.
PFS: If this is the case, how does this affect the way people advertise
themselves?
You see, back in my day, it was relatively easy; if one was very
passionate about what they did, they could be a pioneer. For example, I feel
very fortunate to have introduced Savate to the United States; actually, I
should say that it was my partner Daniel Duby that introduced Savate to the
U.S. - I was his walking heavy bag! Back in the late seventies, early
eighties, Dan (the true pioneer) would travel all over the states trying to
educate people. The first process of this edification was the introduction
of weapons to the United States. It is my honor to have been on the
receiving end; watching people’s faces light up when we would show sumbrada,
numerada, knife fighting, sparring, etc. was very exciting. As Dan would
travel from school to school, the next thing he would introduce was Western
boxing hands to the curriculum of Karate America. It was a wonderful feeling
back then, to be showing people how boxing is so incredibly effective.
Watching karate people from all walks of life turning their art functional
for perhaps the very first time. We made a lot of friends, and I am very
honored to have been a part of that.
Now we come to the eighties, and the next step in Dan’s quest was to
introduce Thai boxing to all. We received a lot of grief from students who
were extremely reticent about kicking below the waist. Again, a very
humbling and rewarding experience to watch people become more and more
functional as they added these absolutely necessary elements into their
personal matrix.
The next major revelation that most of America had, as a result of Dan’s
teachings, was how lethal trapping/clinch range could be. It was absolute
comedy to watch people’s jaws drop to the ground as Dan would go through a
litany of eye jabs, arm wrenches, elbows, knees, head butts, etc. The only
unfortunate part of that was that I was on the receiving end! Introducing
Kino Mutai to the world has been interesting, to say the least. I think out
of everything, Kino Mutai was the most difficult to establish. It’s simply
too brutal for most people to stomach.
I also feel very privileged to have been able to help introduce Jiu-jitsu to
the United States. Although I received a lot of flak at first from many
schools that laughed at the idea of lying on the ground and putting a man
between your legs, when I look now and see everyone doing it, I have to
admit I feel all warm and fuzzy!
This is why I say that pioneering back then was doable; I have to tell you I
feel sorry for the kids nowadays who want to make a name for themselves and
be different in some way. I’m not trying to say that everything there is to
do has been done – but it is getting extremely difficult to be different and
stand out. And some people just try so hard!
PFS: Could you give us an example of what you’re talking about?
Well, the simple fact is that before Bruce died, some of his last words
were “Jeet Kune Do is only a name; please don’t fuss over it.” Since then, I
count roughly 15 factions of JKD; and in the last 24 years that I’ve been
with Dan, I know of over 30 people that claim to have created a “new and
improved” Jeet Kune Do. This, “My JKD is better than your JKD” shows a total
lack of understanding of Bruce’s paradigm. Even within my own organization,
I had a student that was a full instructor; in a self-advertising post he
was trying to get people to view his new drills, using the phraseology
“non-PFS material.” Again, reminding everyone that the purpose of my
creating Progressive Fighting Systems was to have thousands of different
minds, inventing new and different things. This begs the question: How can
one be in PFS, be a full instructor under me, make up a new drill, and call
it “non-PFS?” This again just shows how desperate people are to try to be
different.
PFS: We’re going to name some names, and would like your frank opinion of
these people.
Jerry Peterson, Jerry Beasley, Matt Thornton, Ron Prather, Lamar Davis,
Erik Paulson, Chris Clugston, Burton Richardson.
First of all, I cannot answer that question because I object to the way it’s
stated. I do not believe it is appropriate or respectful to clump Burt
Richardson, Matt Thornton, and Erik Paulson in with the rest of those
clowns. Burt and I go back a long way, I believe him to be my friend, he’s
always shown nothing but respect and admiration for Dan, and is a very good
martial artist with lots to offer. I feel the same way about Matt Thornton.
Matt is what I would call a distant cousin of ours – much like the Machados
and the Gracies are cousins. Matt learned his JKD from Tom Cruse, who you
all know is a student of mine. I respect Matt very much – he’s an excellent
fighter, an excellent teacher, and I always recommend his tapes to everyone.
And Erik Paulson – Hell, what can I say about Erik? He’s probably one of the
coolest guys I’ve ever met in my life.
PFS: Does this mean that you agree with everything that Matt, Erik, and Burt
have to say?
Of course not! I don’t believe everyone in any field can agree on
everything. As I’ve said before, two doctors don’t always agree on the way
each patient should be treated; two lawyers don’t always agree on how every
detail of a case should be argued; etc. This does not affect respect or
friendship.
PFS: What do you think about the infamous question that has been flying
around for the last few years: Does trapping work?
First of all, the main problem with such an ambiguous, open-ended
question as this is simply a question of semantics, and peoples’ respective
different levels in the martial arts. I’m going to do a drill with you guys:
Shut your eyes, say the word “trapping” three times in a row, and then say
the first technique that comes to mind. Please do not read on, because I do
not want to give the answer yet. Now, here’s the answer: If your technique
was “pak-sao,” you have a very limited, antiquated understanding of
trapping. Trapping is, first and foremost, a range, not a technique.
PFS: Could you give us an example of what you mean?
I think the best way we can go about this is to explain the
genesis/evolution of my trapping paradigm. It all started back at the Kali
Academy when I was boxing six days a week, four hours a day. I thought I had
taken my boxing hands extremely high, and that the world revolved around the
glove. Then one day I met and sparred with a guy named Bruce Curry, and his
brother Donald. I was beaten so badly, I was lying there hunched over, and
Dan looked at me and asked what the hell was the matter. I told him this
incredible revelation that I had, that no matter how hard I trained or how
many hours I boxed, there would always be someone a little bigger who’s
trained just as hard. Dan said, “You’re right, Paul, when you do just
full-contact punching and kicking, you have to fight within your own weight
class. There’s only one way that I know to fight outside of your weight
class; you have to de-fang the snake and render it harmless.” At that point
I said, “What snake?” Dan looked at me and his mouth said, “The metaphorical
snake, Paul.” But his eyes said, “The metaphorical snake, dumbshit!” When
you smash the hand, the opponent relinquishes his weapon, and you have
de-fanged the snake. In the world of empty hands, the way you de-fang the
snake is to straight blast the opponent and force him to run backwards. Now
you have rendered this person relatively impotent. For the next several
weeks to months, I put the helmet on everyone and sparred full-contact in
all the classes (Phases Two and Three). Once I became proficient, I was
amazed at how effective the straight blast was. Eventually, people started
whining and I was forced to blast on their chests - no one wanted to put on
the helmet anymore. Straight blasting the chest was much more difficult; but
eventually I prevailed. The one thing I noticed was no one ever gave me a
reference point for me to trap when I would blast them. Most people simply
covered and turned away. I could rarely, if ever, apply a pak sao or a lop
sao, etc. Where were the Wing Chun traps? Most people covered up, and it was
most natural for me to “trap the neck,” using the Thai boxing clinch, and
subsequently thumb the eyes, and head butt, knee and elbow. So my formula
became: Enter…Straight Blast…Head butt, Knee, Elbow. I got to the point
where I could do this formula in my sleep, with relative impunity. As the
years went on, I moved up to the Phase Four and JKD classes. The folks in
these classes were simply at too high a level for me to pull off my formula
against them. We had many pro boxers, kickboxers, and Thai boxers, and for
month after month after month, Dan would watch me attempt my formula (enter,
straight blast, HKE) to no avail. I had no boxing gloves on, and could not
return fire to the face, but would receive very heavy blows from everyone
else. Dan finally got tired of watching me eat leather, and gave me a rather
odd directive. He suggested that I stop sparring in the JKD class, and join
his weapons class. At that point, I protested vehemently. I believe my words
were something like, “Dan, what the heck do I need weapons for? After all,
I’m not going to be walking down the street, and some crazed Filipino is
going to jump out of a tree with espada y daga, and I of course have my
espada y daga handy to defend myself.” At that point, Dan once again gave me
the “dumbshit” look and very patiently explained to me that there were these
things called attributes, and I seriously lacked them. There were a myriad
of wonderful drill that the Filipinos invented, that he called
self-perfection drills; and he assured me that if I got into his class for
six months, the attributes that I lacked would be raised and I would be able
to enter, straight blast, and head butt the JKD guys as well.
Well, to make a long story short (it appears to be too late for that), after
six months, four hours a day of sumbrada, serrada, numerada, carrenza,
hubbud, etc. Dan approached me and advised me to go back into the JKD class.
I did so, and to my amazement, I was straight blasting, head butting,
kneeing, and elbowing every person in the class. This gave me an incredible
epiphany: I learned that full-contact sparring alone, even though it is the
most “alive” drill one can do, is not enough to take a person even close to
their fullest potential! I was elated at my new tools (my self-perfection
drills) that could make people functional with their trapping. This is why I
find it ironic that many of the people who say they cannot functionalize
their traps coincidentally also hate self-perfection drills.
At this point I was convinced that there was no need for Wing Chun traps!
About two years later, I got into a fight with a very famous Wing Chun man
(I’m not going to mention his name). When the fight began, I entered with my
straight blast, but instead of him turning and covering like everyone else,
HE occupied centerline as a response, and we were stuck at a reference
point. This precipitated a pak sao/lop sao from me, and I followed up with
several elbows to the face, and was pleased with the result. The very
poignant lesson that I learned was this: The only time you ever need to do a
Wing Chun trap is if you’re fighting a Wing Chun man who happens to occupy
center line. Otherwise, the vast majority of the time, one never needs to
trap the arms at all. This is why over the many years to follow, when people
hear me refer to trapping, I’m talking about an entry, straight blast, and
head butting, kneeing and elbowing…not some pak sao! (Later, when I was
teaching SEAL Team Six, I coined the name “Rapid Assault Tactics”, or RAT
for short) for this method of trapping.
PFS: In the course of the invention of the Internet and these forums, some
people have used them as a method of slander. In your case, some people have
brought up alcohol and drugs. Could you please explain to us why on earth
you think this is?
Absolutely. Because I did alcohol and drugs. (Although the drug thing is
exaggerated greatly) Personally, I find it interesting and even slightly
amusing why anyone would care what I did in the 80’s, but I can tell you
this – the way people know is quite simple. I’ve been telling people for the
last fifteen years. In every seminar, I allocate a certain amount of time
for talks on spirituality. I have told people, very honestly and very
blatantly, about the trials and tribulations, the highs and lows of my life
with complete honesty. I have discussed, in great detail, how the martial
arts have changed me as a person. At this point, if someone chooses to judge
and take my inventory and not look deep down inside at their own personal
skeletons, so be it - I have no control over that. Besides, guys, it’s not
my fault! I’m allergic to alcohol.
PFS: You’re allergic
to alcohol?
Yeah…every time I drink, I break out in handcuffs!
PFS: What do you think about Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto’s concept of
“Aliveness?”
I think aliveness is a highly important aspect of training. To me, the
ultimate “aliveness” is to put a motorcycle helmet on someone, throw a pair
of boxing gloves on them, and instruct them to spar you full-contact,
anything goes. I have been preaching this very point to people for twenty
years. If anyone were to get my Straight Blast tape that I made in 1986,
they would hear me mention putting a helmet on and sparring full-contact
roughly 19 times! When I sparred with Pat Bagley (he’s the 230 pound big
brawny guy), I instructed him to simply spar normally, no cooperation. As I
entered to straight blast, and head butt, knee and elbow, I got hit a few
times in the face. At that point, some student said, “Are we going to do
another take? We don’t want to keep that one in, obviously; you got hit.” I
found that statement funny – I get hit in ALL my fights! (laughs). This is
aliveness, folks.
PFS: You have mentioned that you do not agree with everything that
everyone says. Could you give us some examples?
What I would rather do is start out by telling you things I do
agree with. Let’s take our cousins, the Straight Blast Gym, for an example.
I will list some of the main areas that the SBG has in common with PFS.
Full Contact Sparring
Groundfighting
Jab, Cross, Hook, Uppercut, Overhand
Thai Boxing
Savate
Passing the guard
Mount
Cross-side
North-south position
Arm locking
Foot locks
leg locks
Chokes
Head butts, knees, elbows
Full contact weapons sparring
As you can see, we do so many things similar…all of the above techniques we
both train full-contact; we are both heavily into sparring, both very
heavily into groundfighting. One of the major dissimilarities between our
respective curriculums is that SBG appears to have thrown out anything
involving self-perfection drills.
PFS: What is your
personal opinion of self-perfection drills?
I believe them to be the
cornerstone of our training.
PFS: Could you please elaborate?
I have over 5,000
students worldwide. My clients include everyone from the hardest-core
animals that you could ever imagine – i.e. some of my military special
forces – all the way to the other end of the scale, including physically
challenged children in my Adapt For Life program. I am not in the martial
arts to just fight. That would be the Vunak in his 20’s. As Dan has spoken
so eloquently, we first must travel through the physical door, then the
mental door, next the emotional door, and finally through the spiritual
door. Not to sound corny, but to me, spirituality means being able to help a
wide spectrum of people…in every walk of life.
One of the toughest hurdles is for a martial art instructor to keep his
students. The main reason students quit martial arts is the same reason they
quit anything in life – they get bored with it. After all, if you were
having an incredible amount of fun doing something, you certainly wouldn’t
quit. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had the incredibly fulfilling
experience of going to a school that has been doing the same things day in
and day out. I teach them a drill they have not seen before, and all of a
sudden, the “spark” comes back! People, it’s a beautiful feeling to know
that you have an enormous repertoire of training methods and knowledge to
pull from.
I can assure all of you that all of these beautiful drills that have been
passed down to us from Dan and Bruce have a place somewhere in our lives.
When I’m teaching my Navy SEALs, do any of you actually believe that I have
these animals out there doing sumbrada or hubbud? Of course not. Nor would I
do those kinds of drills if I were teaching NHB fighters. In these cases,
our curriculum is simple: Rapid Assault Tactics. Full-contact boxing,
kickboxing, stick and knife fighting. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu mixed with Kino
Mutai. That’s it – that’s the entire curriculum.
If any of you could be a fly on the wall while I’m teaching a military
outfit to prepare for a combat mission, you would be a little surprised. Mr.
Down to Earth, happy-go-lucky California boy Vunak is up in people’s faces,
screaming, cussing, and yelling. With the SEALs I made a point of sparring
everybody, all the time. Tempers would fly, testosterone was very thick, and
for 8 hours a day we never stopped. I can assure you that there are not many
people on the planet as conditioned or as prepared for combat as these guys.
This Navy SEAL curriculum, combined with an onslaught of Killer
Instinct/emotional training I believe to be the best curriculum for the
military. You may ask, if this is the best curriculum, why do anything else?
Well, before I answer this, I would like you to pause for a moment, take a
deep breath, and empty your cup. I will now share with you an epiphany I had
that changed my entire life. This is the main reason for any success that
any of you may think that I have had.
We, as martial arts instructors, must be able to cater to as wide an
audience as possible.
Everyone out there is not a bad-ass Navy SEAL, and everyone out there is not
a 250 pound, 6’5” NHB fighter…nor do they particularly want to be. If you
people want to be successful in your schools, I highly recommend that you
take this point to heart. The advice I’m giving you is not theory, it is
fact.
Allow me to share with you just some of the people on my client list. We
teach, for example, wellness programs to corporate America; one of our
clients is IBM. When I drive to L.A., put on my suit and tie, and elevator
up to the top of the skyscraper to teach 75 businessmen and women between
the ages of 40 and 60, do you think these people want to glove up and
kickbox, or hit the mats and grapple? This is when you will thank your Maker
that you have an enormous repertoire of energy drills, self-perfection
drills, reference point trapping, and basically everything that many people
are proscribing so vehemently.
When I’m working with most of our 46 police departments, do you think I’m
allowed to just have these guys going around head butting or boxing
pedestrians? This is when I thank God for locking, Dumog, controls, come-alongs,
etc.
When I’m teaching women’s self-defense (which constitutes 50% of the people
on the planet) do you think that these women want to go toe-to-toe with men
doing NHB stuff?
When I’m teaching my annual doctors’ convention in Atlantic City – do you
think these people want to risk breaking their hands, or want to work
pummeling and takedowns? Of course not – this is when I pull out carrenza,
numerada, sumbrada, etc.
When I’m teaching disabled kids, some of whom are confined to a wheelchair,
it takes every scrap of knowledge and imagination I have to tailor these
“self-perfection” drills for them.
When I teach an anti-carjacking course, much of the battle takes place
seated, fighting someone outside the window. This is when Wing Chun,
centerline, and reference point trapping once again become relevant.
You see, I am at a stage in my life where certain things are extremely
important to me. Because God has blessed me with a unique gift, I want to be
able to give back; to be able to help people in all walks of life, not just
teaching ass-kickers to kick ass better! To this very day, the single
biggest high I’ve ever gotten came from a kid named Lydell. He was a
nine-year old boy who was confined to a wheelchair. He was so shy the day I
met him, he wouldn’t even look me in the eyes, and he absolutely did not
want to practice martial arts. Roughly six months later, Lydell could slam
you in the shins with his chair’s footrest, abaniko you in the head with a
stick, and knife you in the groin, all while wearing the biggest shit-eating
grin you ever saw.
I hope this post helps all of you to see the big picture. I would ask all of
you one favor: If you’re ever browsing the forums and you see any topic that
is in this interview, please refer people to my web site, as this is going
to become a permanent fixture. (www.fighting.net)
In closing, I would like to leave you with a poem from Dan:
We are all climbing different paths through the mountain of life
And we have all experienced much hardship and strife.
There are many paths through the mountain of life
And some climbs can be felt like the point of a knife.
Some paths are short, and others are long;
Who can say which path is right or wrong?
The beauty of truth is that each path has its own song
And if you listen closely, you will find where you belong.
So climb your path true and strong
But respect all other truths, for your way for them could be wrong.
-Dan Inosanto
Peace…
Paul |
